The War of the Decade: Manual vs Automatic

"Road Magazine" (roadmag)
12/24/2013 at 12:58 • Filed to: Manual vs Automatic

In this day and age, we now live in a world where people (or should I say drivers) are constantly bickering to which one is best.

What I'm about to say now isn't an opinion (although some bits may be), but just to enlighten you all to soften your testicles about the demise of the late Manual transmission.

Technology is forever moving forward, and with it comes ways to make 'manual' things become 'automated'. Think about the factories from the 60's, thousands of people sweating out making cars by hand, yes that is a lovely idea saying my car was hand built, but for a business, it's not good!

Factories have moved on to using robots to do the hard work while the humans basically put it all together. How else will you get the best end-result? The blend between man and machine is perfection.

So, let's get onto the nitty-gritty. Manual versus Automatic.

Both have their upsides and both have their downsides. What you prefer is solely your opinion.

Do you know what really grinds my gears? When people bash drivers who like driving automatic cars saying "You're not a true petrol-head meh meh meh".

That is not strictly true, I'm about to drop a bombshell, I prefer automatics, no, not slush-boxes, but Doppelkupplungetstriebe's (that's German for dual-clutch transmission).

Why, where's the driving pleasure I hear you all chant! The driving pleasure is when you get the fizz, not when you change gears. I have ballistic orgasms when I flap a paddle because I feel like I'm in a race car. However, in a manual I feel more in control, some flappy paddle systems are rubbish and don't let you downshift when you want.

Manuals are great because of their 'hey take control of me driver' attitude. Yeah, that's all great but then taking your hand off the wheel to change gears does give you less control of the car.

Now before you say anything, yes on a track you downshift before you get into a corner, but wouldn't a flip of a paddle be easier?

Hmm, this argument goes many many ways.

We don't live in a world of 'feel' anymore, remember what has happened to good 'ol hydraulic steering? Yep, been replaced by a numb artificial rack.

But what is all of this for, in terms of performance cars? Lap times. Everybody wants the next-gen Porsche GT3 to be faster, and one of the ways to do that is a dual-clutch transmission right?

Well you know where I'm going with this. No arguing, no bickering, no bashing other users, just genuinely which you prefer and why. I've given my account and which one I prefer.

Just to write this article off, I love manuals, I love it in the E39 M5, I love it in hot-hatches but as an all-rounder a dual-clutch auto is for me.

DISCUSSION (57)

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:01

I hope someone sent you a flame suit for Secret Senna!

RW53104 > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:02

Manuals are just more engaging and fun/enjoyable- if you're in an enjoyable environment. Sitting through Chicago rush hour in a 5-speed Jeep just plain sucks.

Road Magazine > Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif
12/24/2013 at 13:02

Hahah, looking forward to my delivery.

Casper > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:03

Dear god... so much ignorance. It's too early to write an essay on all the problems with this piece, so I'm just going to get my coffee and maybe some popcorn and let everyone else have at you.

Your entire article could have been the last sentence and been just as good.

Decay buys too many beaters > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:05

Me, I like manuals. I've never tried a dual clutch auto, but here are my reasons I can tell you I prefer a manual.

1. I am not a good enough driver for there to be a measurable difference in times on a track

2. In traffic a manual is just as easy to use as an automatic (assuming one is experienced)

3. Complexity, in a pinch I could service most components in a manual transmission. This is not true of modern dual clutch setups.

Anon > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:07

I'm actually with you on this. I drive a manual but I would gladly take a good dual clutch over a manual any day.

Party-vi > Casper
12/24/2013 at 13:08

Hey, can you read through these again ? Specifically the first two bolded points. Thaaanks.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Party-vi > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:10

The only thing that worries me about dual clutch transmissions is their clunkiness in everyday driving. How easy is it to maneuver around a parking lot with a PDK vs a standard manual or automatic transmission?

Party-vi > RW53104
12/24/2013 at 13:17

I used to have a 5-spd Cherokee. Driving from MD through DC to Arlington every day was terrible.

Road Magazine > Casper
12/24/2013 at 13:18

If it hurts your eyes, look away.

Road Magazine > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:21

It is actually really easy. In fact it's probably easier. Having to stick the clutch in gear in gear out is something I find a bit of a hassle. If you live in the UK like me where traffic is friggin' everywhere, it's annoying. But it's weird because about 70% of cars down here are manuals.

Casper > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:21

I'm not being a dick... but you could be seen as such. I simply don't have time to explain everything he lacks understanding of to make the piece less ignorant. If anything, he's in violation of number 3.

PatBateman > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:22

Today's performance-minded automatic transmissions are vastly superior to today's manual transmissions. It doesn't mean they're more fun, though.

Dual Clutch Tranny (stop giggling, perv): extremely fast shifts, will hold the gear for as long as you tell it to.

Performance Manuals: super fun, not quite as quick on the shift points.

Victorious Secret > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:23

Remember when you could disemvowel posts? Those were the days. Oh man, can IT please bring that functionality?

Please?

Road Magazine > PatBateman
12/24/2013 at 13:25

Think of the Aventador, that's a single-clutch unit which sends plenty of feel between the gears (if you're in CORSA of course). Wouldn't that be enough? Or is it the whole thing about pushing the clutch in and actually moving a gear stick.

Victorious Secret > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:25

I have one car I want in manual, but would I turn it away if it was DCT? Nope.

Not even a little bit.

A car is more than the transmission and I'm not going to let the transmission or lack of manual transmission sour the car. Manuals don't automatically mean more fun. A shit car is still a shit car. Crap cars don't become magically fun with a manual. They are still shit. So I've never got that argument.

I'm with you though, if you say you don't want a manual or that you prefers autos you get flamed for not being a true enthusiast. Hence why I don't take anyone seriously anymore, because thats stupidity and arrogance and ignorance at its finest.

Victorious Secret > Casper
12/24/2013 at 13:27

So your problem with him is that he shared his own, unique opinion? Thats it, thats his crime from what I can make out here.

You say ignorance, because you don't agree? I don't get it.

You sir, are a dick. You say he is ignorant, but instead of making that point more fleshed out you simply make a troll worthy statement? Please, Party was bang on in his post. Don't be a dick. If you have nothing good to say, which you clearly can't or won't say, don't say it at all.

Party-vi > Casper
12/24/2013 at 13:28

You contributed nothing to this article or the dialogue it tried to set up and called the OP ignorant. He demonstrates enough knowledge of the subject matter and is asking for opinions in the comments which you did not see fit to provide - why did you even leave a comment?

Just try to use constructive criticism next time instead of heaping shit on the OP :)

Party-vi > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:31

I miss my manual car - even though it was a 25 year-old Jeep I could use that thing like a scalpel. modulating the clutch would get me in and out of parking lots without using the accelerator at all. Now DC traffic wasn't fun at all but I miss the control I used to have with three pedals.

I've heard stories about SMG transmissions and older DSGs that were awful in stop-and-go traffic as well as trying to parallel park - situations where low speeds and seamless gear changes are necessary.

Casper > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:32

No. You specifically said I was a dick for not educating yet another person looking for free clicks on a topic that has been beaten more than the dead horse. If he wants to learn about it, look at the other 20 threads about it from just the last few months. At this point it's clear he doesn't actually want information, he wants notifications in his inbox. I gave him that.

PS9 > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:32

What I'm about to say now isn't an opinion (although some bits may be), but just to enlighten you all to soften your testicles about the demise of the late Manual transmission.

'Demise' isn't the word I would use. On one hand, consumers in the US have clearly made their choice. For every five cars with a stick, 95 of them will come with an auto. Automatic technology has clearly advanced; manuals no longer have the advantage in terms of efficiency or power delivery, which is why the worlds fastest cars all use flappy paddle dual clutches now.

On the other, making cars is a multi-billion dollar enterprise involving global infrastructure. They are beaten only by airplanes as the cross-sectional example of our advanced technology. People in the US might be over the manual, but folks in Europe still want their sticks. If your selling the same car in both regions, it costs you almost nothing to sell the same manual model you must make anyway to satisfy European tastes in the US.

The DSG will probably take over both the roles of the torque converter and the third pedal...but thats later. For now, they're expensive to research, develop, mass produce, and fix. This is why some of the largest auto firms on the planet still don't have a DSG of their own yet. GM, Dodge (no, they still don't count even though they're owned by fiat) Toyota and probably someone else I haven't named have yet to take the plunge.

Also, automotive market trends are more complex, and require deeper analysis than the numbers imply. An M3 exists in a much different market segment than a Camry does, which is why half of those in the US will still come with the stick, even though Bravaria has a dual clutch of it's own. This means that, even post-DSG era, cars marketed toward enthusiasts might still come with a third pedal option anyway. It might continue to decline, but it's not going to go away until we - all of us, in every market segment - stop buying manual cars.

Reigntastic > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:34

To me, it's simply about the control. I like manuals because when I blip perfectly for a downshift, I know I did it. When I decide I want to drive a certain way, it's subconscious.

Comparing automatics to manuals and manuals to DCT or PDK systems is different though. You still have responsiveness with the DCT or PDK, and they both make for excellent track toys. I don't track my car though, and I don't care if I save a tenth of a second on my shift while accelerating from a stop light. I enjoy the rewarding and active process of directly controlling my drivetrain.

In all honesty, it's because driving automatics makes me bored. I'm much happier when I'm heel toeing, and my 3 weeks with an automatic impala made me hate driving every time I had to reach for that stupid facsimile of a proper gearshift.

I just want to have fun.

911e46z06 > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:34

They both have their strong points. For the daily driver, I always go with the auto. Right now I have an e46 M3 with the SMG which is the perfect compromise. I can still feel connected and in control without being uncomfortable in a traffic jam.

I also do quite a bit of heavy duty towing. I've done it with both a manual and an automatic. While some people prefer the manual, I much prefer a shiftable automatic. It just makes life easier, and I don't want to be screwing around with a manual when one little missed shift can leave you way up shit creek with no paddle and a 40 foot trailer behind you.

But for the fun/weekend/hooning cars, you just can't beat a manual, for the reasons I'm sure others will discuss here at length.

Party-vi > Casper
12/24/2013 at 13:34

This thread is a waste of bandwidth.

Jaanus > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:35

Time to bring in Clutch.

TheOnelectronic > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:36

Modern DCT's are very smooth. The unit in my mom's S6 is completely transparent unless in "sport" mode, where the shifts are rapid and rev-matched.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:37

Commuting =/=Driving

I do not see anything wrong with commuting in heavy traffic in an automatic car.

I still prefer the engagement I get from driving a manual, and will regularly rev-match-heel-and-toe downshift for stoplights, stop signs, etc just because I can.

The sensation of reward when you get it right is something that I do not believe a flappy-paddle box can give me, even if it's some marginal degree faster around a track.

Road Magazine > PS9
12/24/2013 at 13:37

Hmm, I see. Thanks for elaborating on that. It's true that manual won't ever go away and you're right maybe 'demise' isn't the right word, but, cars are changing so fast, it's hard to understand whether it's staying or going.

I'm sure it won't totally disappear, but give it a couple years and maybe only a few cars will feature manual gear boxes? Here in Europe, most cars are manuals.

Victorious Secret > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:37

Old SMGs...okay they sucked. If you weren't driving hard, forget about it. When driven hard, cars like the M3 and M5 were brilliant. The trannies begged to be thrashed. But slow speed, parking, traffic? Brutal. The programming was not there.

Modern DCTs? I'll say this, my crappy 20k Veloster has a DCT that could pass as a torque converter auto in daily traffic use. It just works. No hesitation. Nothing. They've gotten substantially better.

As to the costs, cars these days are not built to last 10 years. They are built to last till the end of the lease/warranty (usually the two are the same) so its less of a concern on an owners mind. I have heard horror stories on DCTs, on cheap cars a replacement could be 15-25% of the total cost of the car for crying out loud. Shit be expensive.

Hell, the advent of DCTs forced better torque converters like the ZF 8 speed.

Its the inevitable future, I'm happy to just enjoy it instead of being Mr. Grinch and hating it.

Casper > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:37

It would only be a waste of bandwidth if people were reading it... otherwise it's just a waste of storage.

Victorious Secret > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 13:38

The Aventador in Corsa is brutal. I don't wish that kind of back breaking ferocity on even my worst enemy.

Having said that, oh boy is it fun. So much fun.

Fun is more than just pushing a clutch in and out. Its other things too.

911e46z06 > RW53104
12/24/2013 at 13:38

Indeed. Anyone who says auto cars are not worth owning has never sat in a Southern California traffic jam

Party-vi > Jaanus
12/24/2013 at 13:43

FUCK YES CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a bit of a fan lol

PS9 > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 13:46

I wish the first manual car I ever drove had the Torque of your Jeep at idle. No gas + clutch modulation = STALL. Every single time.

Casper > Victorious Secret
12/24/2013 at 13:47

If I responded with an entire write up to every single person who uses this topic to garner clicks like I have in the past, it would be my full time job. Just yesterday we had the exact same topic, but this time to try to avoid having to do research or justification, he tried to use a declaration of opinion.

An opinion can be ignorant, incorrect, and even stupid. Just look at the Westboro Baptist Church, they have a lot of opinions, but very few people would move them out of the stupid category. The difference depends on the provability of said opinion. My assertion that it is ignorant is correct, he hasn't even accounted for the issues mentioned in the thread from yesterday, let alone the 1000's before that. It's not my job to write an entire thesis explaining why someone who chose to write a topic is ignorant when the material is on the same site if they just searched.

Party-vi > PS9
12/24/2013 at 13:48

It was pretty awesome. If I was feeling especially lazy I'd just ease into gears and get up to around 30mph without using any of the skinny pedal haha.

Victorious Secret > Casper
12/24/2013 at 13:50

Then don't respond at all. Ignore the articles entirely. That is your choice as well, yet you chose to bitch all the same.

Casper > Victorious Secret
12/24/2013 at 13:53

I gave my input, just as you have. Just because I refused to do an entire write up of why what he posted was ignorant doesn't make me any more of a dick than any of your usual posts... other than you like the topic/author at hand.

If it weren't for the length of the overall piece, he would have received a warning for rule #3.

Casper > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 14:29

Alright, I had a chance to clear my emails and get my coffee, let's go. Apparently I hurt vi's feelings with my first post. If that's the case I'm sorry... he's a sensitive boy.

The entire argument about which is better is invalid. They are better at different things. For instance I prefer a 2 to 3 speed automatic for drag racing. I prefer DCG for road racing. I prefer manual for daily driver, autocross, and most non-high end racing.

There are manual transmissions that are very technologically modern, for instance in the new Corvette (although you can argue where the transmission ends and accessories start). So the "newer is better" argument isn't very valid. Every transmission is constantly being reviewed and improved, be it manual or automatic.

What if preferred is not often a matter of opinion unless it is in a car that is being used as a commuting utility. Often the selection of transmission type is dictated by use. For example, many race series require manuals, many race series require automated manuals, some require automatics. Many specific job functions, such as work trucks with heavy loads require manuals. Vehicles looking to meet specific price points while retaining performance must also be manual. If you are comparing two people who are simply using their car minimally to commute, then it is preference, much beyond that scope and there are dictations of need driving many of the decisions.

Let's look at the handicaps shall we? A manual transmission in the traditional sense has a clutch. This single tool gives you massively more adjustment/tuning potential than the majority of offerings from automatics. This is also why automatics have had such a bumpy road bridging the gap of street performance cars. Being good at rapid shifts while also being able to leave a light smoothly or start on a hill in the snow are tricks that are very difficult for automatics to achieve. This is why they have added a massive amount of accessories to the mix to make it easier (TCS, ASV, HS, AR, etc). The ONLY handicap to a manual transmission is that it relies on the drivers ability/coordination to operate. That's it. If you could make a gear change in 1/1000th of a second, a properly matched manual would be right there with you. Of course that's assuming we are talking about traditional H pattern manuals and not veering into the realm of sequential shift transmissions.

You seem confused by what people define as control. First, let's dispel the myth that taking a hand off the wheel results in less control. In a modern car with power steering you are not losing control by reducing force application potential. One hand can control the vehicle equally as well as two if all factors are equal. Where that "keep your hands at 10 and 2" comes in to play is that most people are of minimal driving proficiency or driving vehicles lacking bolstering to keep the driver in optimal position. If you were to slide out of position, you may need to the second hand to prevent the first from adjusting the wheel in an undesired way. This is really a racing/vehicle specific/new driver concept. People talking about control in reference to manual transmissions are doing so regarding the control of power/traction/and gear selection. A manual allows a greater level of pre-selection of gears and determination of engagement than in possible with the automatics due to the nature of the entire concept.

Now, let's talk vehicle stability. Unbalancing a vehicle on corner entry is actually usually due to the gear change or braking transitions. In the example of a manual vehicle utilizing a clutch, you have control of how aggressively the engine engages the transmission as well as how much power/drag is applied to the wheels and when. In an automatic (using the term loosely) you generally have a straight gear change, which applies all the drag/power from the engine to the wheels as soon as it occurs. On exit this it mitigated by throttle control, on down shifts, it is minimized by rev matches... but it still can't match the manuals infinite adjustability.

You are really wandering off topic with the discussion about driving feel. There are still MANY cars that prize driver feel, and most are the kind of cars that lend themselves to a manual transmission. For instance, the S2000 was a fantastic platform because of the transmission. Regardless of whether you could have picked a few hundredths of a second up with a faster gear changing transmission on specific circuits, the car was an amazing tool in the hands of a driver who could actually use it properly. Which actually brings me to the larger issue at hand, the driver.

Most of this "which is better" nonsense revolves around the idea that a person who chooses an automatic isn't an enthusiast. Since enthusiast is an absurdly broad term (there are 5 year old children out there that are "enthusiasts") let's step back and look at it from a driver quality perspective. If a driver is choosing an automatic because they do not want to spend the time to learn to drive a manual correctly, then the hate is justified. Car control is more than not simply crashing into objects going from point A to point B, and having more interaction with the vehicle gives you a better understanding of it's functionality. Plain and simple. Further, just learning something then moving on actually teaches nothing. Practice is what makes perfect, not spending a week driving your uncles Cayman around a parking lot. Drivers need to always be varying their feel and experience to help them stay in tune with whatever vehicle they are in if they hope to be anything above average.

Now, let's get into the major issue at hand. Price. The reason manual transmissions are still massively preferred by people who are looking to do anything other than drag race their cars is the cost of maintenance/replacement/tuning. Having access to a cheap tool like a clutch provides racers and serious drivers access to a system that is relatively easy to work on, cheap to change, and adds massive flexibility to the rest of the drive system. The transmission is the same story. The cost of a standard manual transmission is less than a 10th that of a low end race worthy automatic, which then must be tuned as much or more so to worth with it's torque converter/engagement method.

My personal preference of transmission is always driven by what is the best for what I'm doing. Daily driving and autocross, it will be a manual (with the exception of a few autocross setups where I like a true automated manual system). Drag racing will always be a few gear automatic with perfect stall/launch system (manual or auto controls don't really matter). On road courses and technical high speeds, I will continue to go back and fourth between DCG and manual depending on if I'm doing it more for pure lap time or fun/driving experience.

Hope that makes some sense, I'm only going to have time to make a straight dump of info and not edit much.

Victorious Secret > Casper
12/24/2013 at 15:05

The difference is I actually explain why I'm being a dick, with a proper post. Unlike you, you just wanted to stir up shit for no reason.

You're the dick here. Thats it. Like I said, if you are so tired of responding to articles like this you should've just ignored the entire thing. As it stands, have fun being in the grey!

Casper > Victorious Secret
12/24/2013 at 15:10

I'm grey? Oh my god, I'm grey on one thread that was pointless!

Manuél Ferrari > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 15:10

You good sir are open minded. I like it. I wrote a similar post a few months ago. My opinion is that there is no winner. Manual isn't always better. All transmissions have their pros and cons. It all comes down to personal preference:

http://rusto.kinja.com/the-comprehens…

I also wrote this ode to the single clutch flappy paddle transmission yesterday because it's going extinct way sooner than the stick. And while I understand why it still makes me kind of sad:

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/ode-to-the-six…

I love all 3 forms of manuals. I currently own all three. They're all more fun than slushboxes and CVTs :)

Manuél Ferrari > 911e46z06
12/24/2013 at 15:13

I love the E36 SMG. Most people hate it. Not me. I love how quirky it is and how noisy the gear changes can be. It has such a mechanical feel to it. And no clutch pedal is useful in So Cal commuting.

I love it so much I wrote this yesterday:

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/ode-to-the-six…

Manuél Ferrari > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable)
12/24/2013 at 15:16

I agree with that. If I'm not commuting then I prefer a stick.

Stick is better for Sunday pleasure drives 100 times out of 100.

But commuting is a fact of life, and I like to enjoy my commutes. Flappy paddles can turn commuting from a chore to a somewhat enjoyable experience (especially if there is something good on the radio).

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
12/24/2013 at 15:21

Their suckiness is what makes them endearing to me. You have to think about how you drive SMG when you're not driving hard. You can drive smoothly if you treat it like a stick and pay attention to when you shift and how you modulate the throttle.

Also SMG can cause hilarity. I let my sister borrow my E46 SMG M3. She doesn't know how to drive stick. She put it in auto mode and took off without any pointers from me. When she came back she was white as a ghost. I found that to be hilarious, because I'm a bad person.

Manuél Ferrari > Party-vi
12/24/2013 at 15:23

PDK in particular is so smooth that it's almost boring. You can hand a 991 PDK to literally anyone and they can drive it just like it was a Camry. They would need zero experience driving stick.

Manuél Ferrari > Reigntastic
12/24/2013 at 15:26

One nice thing about stick is that sometimes it helps me with boredom, which can help prevent tickets. I can have more fun driving stick while staying within reasonable speeds because you can focus on the shifting instead of the speed. With paddles I get more amusement out of snapping off violent shifts at WOT. Which definitely doesn't help prevent speeding tickets...

Manuél Ferrari > Victorious Secret
12/24/2013 at 15:27

You are so lucky. I want to experience the Aventador in Corsa so badly. I don't have any back issues so I'm game for experiencing the jolt!

911e46z06 > Manuél Ferrari
12/24/2013 at 16:03

Yeah, I dig it. The downshifts are so much meaner than I can make them. I was a little worried when I bought the car, not having owned a sequential before, but I've been pleasantly surprised.

syaieya > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 16:07

Personally, I use an automatic for my daily driving. But I wont deny that the most fun I've had was in a manual.

That all being said, why don't we just digitalize the manual? Blasphemy aside.

If we have all these computers already, why can't we just make a shifter that will let you chose your own gear from an automatic in the traditional H pattern?

Kinja'd!!!

If a cheap video game system can do it, why can't a normal car?

D > Road Magazine
12/24/2013 at 16:23

again? isn't this horse beat to death already

Manuél Ferrari > 911e46z06
12/24/2013 at 16:25

And I love how much it confuses people who have never driven it before. Even people who have owned a car with a stick get a little confused at first. SMG isn't just plug and play like a DCT is.

Stef Schrader > Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif
12/24/2013 at 17:05

I need a new one. I bought mine when I was, uh, fluffy? Let's call it fluffy.

911e46z06 > Manuél Ferrari
12/25/2013 at 04:36

Indeed. Pretty solid theft prevention.

Manuél Ferrari > 911e46z06
12/25/2013 at 13:38

Is it tricky getting yours into neutral too when you are trying to start the car?

911e46z06 > Manuél Ferrari
12/25/2013 at 15:39

I don't know, I always park it in neutral. My BMW guy says parking it in gear on an incline really fucks it up.

Manuél Ferrari > 911e46z06
12/25/2013 at 15:55

Good to know, thanks.